Dana 80 vs 14 bolt of Technology
dana 70 vs 14 bolt. 1041 Views 7 Replies 7 Participants Last post by jchio, Sep 20, 2001 Jump to Latest T. The Jerk Discussion starter ...Crane Axle Magnum Knuckle Kit. All Bearings, Seals, and Hardware needed to install. Magnum Inner C's are bored 3.5" ID standard. Please CALL TO ORDER if you would like them bored to 4.0" ID. (615) 962-9135. Introducing the MAGNUM KNUCKLE KIT from Crane Axle. Commonly used on a 14 Bolt Steering Axle and a Dana 80 Steering Axle.AMC Model 20 (Jeep Corp. M20) DANA 25 DANA 27 DANA 30 DANA 35 DANA 44 DANA 60 DANA 80 DODGE Ram 9.25 in. Ford 7.5 in. Ford 8.8 in. FORD Truck (Sterling) FORD Truck 9.75 in. GM Intermediate (10 Bolt) GM Intermediate (12 Bolt) GM Truck (10 Bolt) GM Truck (12 Bolt) GM Truck (14 Bolt)Introducing U-bolt style 1350 and 1410 series yokes for the Dana 60 & 70 axles! Northern Drivetrain is proud to introduce our newest products for the Dana 60 & 70 market. 1350 and 1410 series, u-joint style forged yokes for the Dana 60 and Dana 70 axle.Enough already. Everywhere we go, we hear the same argument: The Dana 60 is the best rear axle. No, the GM Corporate 14-bolt is best. My full-floater can whip your full-floater. Like to see you try.The biggest weakness of a 14 bolt is that the driveline is held on by cheesy straps & bolts, a yoke kit is really needed you are going to off-road with this axle. The 10.5 ford has great clearance for such a big axle and needs no shave or yoke kits. Like the 14-b, the 10.5 is overkill for most jeeps and will put up with a lot of abuse.1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks - Dana 60 to Chevy 14 Bolt Swap - I have a early 1977 f250. Ive done a search on here and cant find any post about this. I think the search just sucks. I read the 14 bolt is a bulletproof and cheaper axle to build.Big91RustyBucket. A SF puts all the weight on the axle shafts . A full floater will put the weight on the axle itself, and distribute it accordingly, all the shafts do is transfer the power to the ground. I personnally would never use a SF rear with how cheap 14blt FF's are to come by and build.GMtruxrule is correct, outer axle shafts and everything from the spindle out is interchangeable between the 10 bolt and Dana 44 and the inner axle shafts are definitely different. The easiest way to tell a GM 10 bolt from a Dana 44 is the shape of the diff cover. The 10 bolts have a more or less round cover, the D44 cover looks somewhat like a ...Technically, the only spring plate needed for the Dana 60 is the passenger side plate, the driveside bolts right up 10 bolt - 60. The front driveshaft is 1310 stock, the Dana 60 yoke is also 1310 stock.1572 posts · Joined 2003. #2 · Feb 17, 2015. I'm not sure. They're both strong shafts, the 10 sterling has bigger carrier bearings, appears to be a stronger center chunk, and more clearance. But I thing the 14B has a larger ring gear, and the pinion support. I went with an 01 10.50, put 10.25 5.38s in it, and welded it up.The dana 80 is a larger and stronger rear axle compared to the dana 70. The main differences between the dana 70 vs dana 80 lie in their size, weight capacity, and application. The dana 70 vs dana 80 debate has been around since the 1990s when they were first introduced. Both axles are popular choices for heavy-duty pickups, rvs, and commercial ...SVL Drivetrain Spider Gear Kits 2023882. Differential Carrier Rebuild Kits and Spider Gears, GM 8.875 in. (12-bolt) Car/Truck, Side Gears, Rear, Limited Slip, Eaton, Posi, 30-spline, Kit. Part Number: SVL-2023882.Gm was the first to use the 11.5 aam 14 bolt rear in 01. dodge followed in 03 after for a few reasons. the aam 9.25 has a slightly higher weight rating than the 60 around 800 lbs, and the 11.5 to the dana 80, about 2000lbs. the 9.25 had high pinion and higher steering.the cost was less and aam had better quality control. i read a forum a while ...Other vehicles that used the 8.8-inch axle included Ford ½-ton trucks from '80 to present, and Mustang GTs. Ranger VS Explorer: The Rangers use a 28-spline 8.8-Inch axle on 4.0 Liter engine applications and a 31-spline axle on FX4 applications. All Explorer's are equipped with a 31-spline 8.8-Inch axle. Notes: For more on Ranger axles ...This is the axle that most of us think of first when we hear 14 bolt. It is very comparable to a dana 70. The 9.5" axle only came as a 14 bolt, semi-floating design. This axle has essentially the same design as the other GM semi-floating axles. ... The 13"x2.5" stuff is about cheaper like $150-200 for a pair of drums and $80-100 for a pair of ...We may earn a commission for products purchased through links on this pageBut there are far more important areas of concern. First, the 10-bolt's pinion shaft diameter is 1.438 (25 splines) while the 12-bolt is 1.625 (30 splines) which makes the 12-bolt 13 percent larger in diameter and therefore stronger. But it's rare to see pinion shafts twist. The weak point is actually out at the axle splines.While this guide focuses on the 14 bolt full float, it can also be used with most other full float axles. The only major difference is that Jeep and Chevy Dana 60 rear axles have 7 mounting bolts instead of 4. Before delving into this step-by-step guide, those working with a 14 bolt axle will want to determine which 14 bolt axle you have.Dana 70 is stronger than 14 bolt FF. All Dana 80's I have ever seen have been dually axles so you would need to measure the width to make sure it will work. You might want to consider an AAM 11.25 out of a newer model GM it already has rear disc brakes. Just a thought. I prefer the 14 bolt FF rearend myself.25333 posts · Joined 2001. #5 · May 23, 2012. Yes, big bearing spindles will bolt onto your current knuckles allowing you to switch to 8 lug. Stub shaft, brakes, etc all stay the same. Your Chevy small bearing spindles were only used for 2-3 years (72-74) iirc and once upon a time were fairly desirable to ford guys so they could run the ...D80 vs GM14 bolt Sled Pulling. AdvertisementLooking at upgrading to 1-1/2" axles in rear diff Right now have Dana 60 It needs new spindle Option one- bore out spindles to fit 1-1/2 " axles and... in this thread in this sub-forum in the entire site. Advanced Search ... Dana 60 vs 14 bolt vs Dana 70. 10234 Views 22 Replies 17 Participants Last post by white knight, Oct 29, 2002.Help Support Hardline Crawlers : Forums. Rock Crawling ForumsArtec Industries' 14 Bolt Modular Axle Truss: the ultimate versatile truss for one-ton TJ/YJ swaps. Heavy-duty design, add-on perches, high clearance shock mounts, and optional Pinion Guard with bridge. Notes : Leaf spring option is for standard YJ width but is for spring over axle (SOA), not spring under (SUA). The kit does not include u-bolts.yeah, think the 2500 gassers all came with the 60 rear, mine has one and it's a 98 HD. It's a lot of work for just a 14 bolt, but I think the newer AAM axles have the tone ring. The hardest part is making a tone ring for the 14 bolt carrier. But the 70s are common. I have a 3.54 D70 I'm going to pull and drop in a 4.10 D80 soon, if you want to buy.Dana Point is undeniably a beautiful destination with the best food places to check out. Here are the best restaurants in Dana Point, California. By: Author Kyle Kroeger Posted on ...Sop far, only the brakes are interchangeable between the 14 bolt and the Eaton. I have seen a lot of requests for part numbers and how-to's for the Eaton brakes. Well, here is my how-to rebuild the brakes on the HO72 and HO52. NOTE: for the 71 and 72 HO72/52 axles this is a direct swap. 70 and earlier use smaller wheel studs and will require a ...Dana 80 axles can be 35- or 37-spline and 1.50 or 1.58 inches, respectively. Most Dana 70s are 35-spline with a diameter of 1.50 inches, while most 14-bolts have 30-spline, 1.50-inch-diameter ...Dana 28™/174 Dana 60™/248 4.10 and Down 4.56 and Up IFS Aerostar 3.27, 3.73 — Super 60™/256 4.30 and Down 4.56 and Up Dana 30™/181 3.55 and Down 3.73 and Up Dana 61™The Dana ®Trademarks referred to herein are Trademarks of Dana Limited. The Dana® Trademarks are used for informational purposes only, and there is no connection ...The Dana 44 of this era always had 30-spline 1.31" shafts, which are the exact same dimensions of the '89-ish to '91 30-spline front 10-bolts. Both The D44 and 10-bolt shafts also had neck down areas just before the splines that were approximately the same diameter. 38377k5 said:Dana 80 (3) GM 8.875 in. (12-bolt), passenger car (3) Dana 30 (2) Dana 50 (2) Show All. Get Results; Make/Model. Make/Engine. Axle Location. Front (64) ... Standard Ring Gear Rotation, GM 10.5 in. (14-bolt), Set. Part Number: SPZ-36188. 5.0 out of 5 stars. Estimated Ship Date: Jun 12, 2024 if ordered today. Drop Ship; Free Shipping; Special ...The main difference between a GM 12 bolt rear end, the Ford 9" rear end and the Dana 60 rear end is the size (and strength) of the ring gear. The 12 bolt rear end has a 8.875" ring gear, the Ford 9" of course has a 9" ring gear and the Dana 60 has a massive 9.75" ring gear. Obviously, the strongest rear end is the Dana 60. Which do you need?Technically, the only spring plate needed for the Dana 60 is the passenger side plate, the driveside bolts right up 10 bolt - 60. The front driveshaft is 1310 stock, the Dana 60 yoke is also 1310 stock.Clutch, Transmission, Differential, Axle & Transfer Case - Dana 60 vs. 14 Bolt - Log In; Register; Forums. Ford Truck Enthusiasts Site Navigation. Site Announcements; New Member Introductions; Ride Of The Week; User Gallery & Picture Display; Newer Light Duty Trucks. 2022+ F-150 Lightning; 2021+ F150; 2015 - 2020 F150; 2009 - 2014 F150;I was going to convert my dana 44 pinion yoke from strap type to u-bolt type but the pinion threads to not protrude out the back of the yoke far enough. I made some measurements and found that the yoke made for straps has a deeper recess for the surface where the pinion nut and washer hit. The difference is about 400 thousandths.Dana 80 rear end differential and axle parts for Ford F250, F350, E250, E350 light trucks with single or dual rear wheels at Denny's Driveshafts ... Dana Spicer 45720 BOLT for AXLE HUB .437 -14 fits Ford Dana 80 Rear with Full Float axle shafts that use 39697 gasket. CLICK HERE for More Details Part Number: 45720.Four Wheeler February 2004, , Ultimate 4x4 Comparo! Dana 80 VS. 14-Bolt, 4 Wheeler Feb 2004, Category: Magazine, WonderClub Stock Keeping Unit (WSKU) FOURWHEELE.Artec Industries' 14 Bolt Modular Axle Truss: the ultimate versatile truss for one-ton TJ/YJ swaps. Heavy-duty design, add-on perches, high clearance shock mounts, and optional Pinion Guard with bridge. Notes : Leaf spring option is for standard YJ width but is for spring over axle (SOA), not spring under (SUA). The kit does not include u-bolts.Clutch, Transmission, Differential, Axle & Transfer Case - Dana 60 vs. 14 Bolt - Log In; Register; Forums. Ford Truck Enthusiasts Site Navigation. Site Announcements; New Member Introductions; Ride Of The Week; User Gallery & Picture Display; Newer Light Duty Trucks. 2022+ F-150 Lightning; 2021+ F150; 2015 - 2020 F150; 2009 - 2014 F150;Differential bearing cap bolts 108 80 Ring gear bolts — grade 9 298 220 Oil filler plug — 1/4-inch recess drive 34 25 Differential housing cover bolts (F350) 47 35 Differential housing cover bolts (F450-F550) 61 45 Sensor (ABS) bolt 40 30 205-02A-2 Rear Drive Axle/Differential — Dana 80 205-02A-2 2007 F-250, 350, 450, 550 Super Duty, 6/2006 Northern Drivetrain is pleased to announce the aDana 80 or 14 Bolt ??? ??? ??? Search first postDifferential bearing cap bolts 108 80 Ring
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1. 14 bolt. 2. Dana 60. 3. Ford 9". But you should know that the 9" can be made VERY strong and has the widest selection of gears/parts and is easy to work on. for heavy loads, the D60 is a full floater and the 9" is not and that makes a big difference. Reply Like. # 3.As for strength compared to the 70 gears, I couldnt exactly say but it surely couldnt be much. The shaft size is where your gaining strength. 14 is 1.5" and 70 is 1.75". Actually the 70 is 1.5", hence the reason a 14bolt is …Ford 9 in. 38in. Early 28 spline axles weak. Ford 10.25in. 44in. similar in strength to Dana 70 and 14 Bolt Full Floater. Axle Shaft strength varies greatly with design, material and application. Spline. Count.ECGS DANA 80 - 6.75" (11.5 INCH RING GEAR) GM14T STND- 6.50" (10.5 INCH RING GEAR -Ground Smooth Standard Cover) GM14T SHAVE COVER- 5.8125" (10.5 INCH RING GEAR Barnes Shave Cover- Eliminates Bottom Bolt Housing is Ground .6875") GM14T FULL SHAVE KIT- 5.25" (10.00" INCH RING GEAR Shaved Gear, ECGS Shave Kit, Cut out housing weld in bottom Plate)Pricing: $325.00. These are rear bolt on flanges that allow you to run double spline shafts in your Dana 60, Dana 70, or Dana 80. We have american made 4340 and 300m shafts available, to give you the ultimate strength for your axle. These flanges are made of heat treated 4340 chromoly.May We Suggest. Dana 60/70 Yoke: 1410 U-bolt Yoke. Dana Spicer Driveshaft U-joint 1480 / SPL55X. Dana 80 Rear Cut-to-Length Chromoly Shaft - 37 Spline 39.5". Dana 80 Install Kit - MASTER. DANA 60 SPOOL (3 SERIES/35 SPLINE) 4.188' snap ring span 1.375' cap diameter 37 Spline Outside snap ring U-BOLT STYLE.The 91-01 (ish) 3500HD used a Dana 80, and the spring perches are right around 40-41" just like the 73-87 1-tons. So a swap may have been done. But these are 10-lug & disc only. They came in 2 different widths... and its the housing itself. The wider one is similar to a DRW pickup. Here's the narrow one: a close-up...Dana 80 axles can be 35- or 37-spline and 1.50 or 1.58 inches, respectively. Most Dana 70s are 35-spline with a diameter of 1.50 inches, while most 14-bolts have 30-spline,...the 14 bolt semi floater and the 10 bolt both are obvisouly semi floating axles. They use c-clips to hold the axle shafts in. To be honest, I would never run a semi floating axle again, there are just too many advantages to the full floaters. The 9.5" semi floater is stronger than a 10 bolt, but still not even close to the full floater.1973 - 1979 F-100 & Larger F-Series Trucks - Dana Axle Question or 14 bolt - Hey all. Im trying to weight the pros and cons of a Dana 70 vs a GM 14 bolt... Co425 has been helping me and he leans towards the 14 bolt. The only reason I want more info is that im putting this rear in my 59 f100 which like a highboy has a...Magnum Knuckle Kit with 2005+ Super Duty Unit Bearing Adapters. Rating: $3,599.98. Add to Cart. Dana 80 Off Road Axle Knuckles. Components include inner c's, D80 outer knuckles, and kits. Made high quality in the USA to have axle components that will last.Messages. 10,299. Aug 30, 2017. #4. The 80 series rear axle is 63" wms to wms. According to this Their are 63" 14 bolt axles as well. While the drum brakes won't be as pretty as discs, they are big enough to easily stop a 80 series. Pirate4x4.Com - Extreme Four Wheel Drive. Build Thread: FJ60 axle in my 40.14 bolt vs. Dana 60. ... 51 Willys PU, 502 Chev, 70/80, CTM/CTM, Hydroboost, 44" Boggers, 205, T400. Save Share. Like. D. ... (and 14 bolt) wheel bearing vs. the 70 wheel bearing. and on that subject of 70 vs 14, the 70's 35 spline shafts have a larger minor diameter than the 14 (thats the diameter at the root of the spline). plus the shafts ...Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension. Dana 60 rear vs. 14-bolt FF. Jump to Latest Followsjracer. 6458 posts · Joined 2009. #11 · Mar 12, 2012. alright OP here's your bone: search and i guarantee you'll find info on how to modify the dana 60 for a 15 inch wheel. the 14 bolt you could either find the smaller 12 inch brakes, but i think they will clear the larger 13" drums no problem.14 Bolt Axle Identification Chart October 26, 2018 If you're wondering which 14 bolt axle you have - full-float or semi-float, dual rear wheel or single rear wheel, slide-on drum or stud mounted drum - the chart below will help you figure it out.My computer sucks and is slow. Tried searching but can't find which Dana 60 and 14 Bolt to look for. I would like to swap these into my Yota. Friends dad has a Junk/Salvage Yard and says there mine if he has what I'm looking for. What year/models should I look or get them from?Dana Engineering's Zack Heisey joined us from our booth at SEMA to provide a rundown of the features and benefits of the new Ultimate Dana 80™ Rear Axle.Get ...The d70 weighs more the a 14 bolt but also has 10k+ pounds of capacity. the axle shafts are 1.5". the only down side is that rather then have built in adjusters to shim the gears you have to use regular shims and stack them like every other axle. The dana70 hd will also have more clearance then a stock 14bolt and can also be shaved.The 80 has the passenger side shock mount forward of the axle where the dana 70 has both shock mounts integrated into the rear of the u bolt plate. Another major difference is the fact that the 70 uses studs on the bottom to hold the shocks and the 80 has u brackets that require bolts.Location. Rancho Nuevo (Cabo), B.C.S., San Diego. Jul Dana 70 has same size shafts, but 35-spline. I don'
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The 10-bolt and the 44 use the same outer stuff, the ring gears are the same size, both are available in 30 spline versions. The 10-bolt uses a slightly larger pinion, and larger ring gear bolts. All in all strength-wise they are very close as a front axle. However there is much better aftermarket support for the Dana 44, which is a good reason ...If youre going to run anything close to a 40" tire, dont fool yourself, buy some 60s. Toyota 4runner frame, 1991 extra cab, all pro 4" leaf springs, allpro high steer, allpro axle forward, rock logic ram assist steering, marlin crawler, ifs rear end, rear disks, detriot lockers, 38.5 boggers, fuel cell, front and rear warn 8000s, four link rear ...Look up the BOM number on a Dana 60 to determine which axle you have, or. Just look at the drum backing plate and count those bolts. If the drum brake backing has 7 bolts it’s a GMC, Chevy, or Jeep axle. These 3 are interchangeable. If the drum brake backing has 4 bolts it’s either a Dodge or a Ford. These are NOT interchangeable.Engine/Drivetrain/Suspension. Dana 60 rear vs. 14-bolt FF. Jump to Latest FollowOct 27, 2011 · Dodson Branch, TN. Mar 19, 2015. #8. Bubba1 said: Andrew Dubosh can give you all the information you need. But this is what I know: Option #1- Torq makes 4340 40 spline spindles. You can run stock hubs but you will have to machine them. Option #2- Solid makes a kit so you can run Dana 60 hubs with internal drive flanges and use their 40 spline ...Dana 60 vs. 14 bolt Jump to Latest Follow 3K views 12 replies 12 participants last post by530.268.9494. USD919.00. Item InquiryTell a Friend. Description. Details. Shipping. Description. 14 bolt 10.5" Full Float 5.38 thick gear set, installed in a used pinion support with new pinion bearings, new pinion seal, new u-bolt yoke, and new Sierra gears. If you are the do-it-yourself type, there is no reason you can't set up your own gears ...Dana 80 Steering Axle Housing Seals. Revolution 30/35 Spline 14 Bolt Inner Seal Kit. Rating: 100 % of 100. 1 Review Add Your Review . ... Seal the Differential of a GM 14 Bolt Steering Axle. The Revolution 14 Seal Housing replaces the stock 14 bolt carrier bearing pre-load spanners. The Revolution 14 spanners accept the common, off-the-shelf ...Upgrade your vehicle with Artec Industries' NEW 14 Bolt Rear Axle Truss. This heavy-duty truss system reinforces your axle while providing a flat surface for upper link mounting. With a 3/8" thick truss top and 1/4" thick gussets, our unique design strengthens the axle and link mounting surface. DRW truss measures 46 1/8" and SRW truss 51 1/4".Full-Floating GM 14-bolt. Advertisement. ... Full-floating Dana 80. This is the step into medium-duty truck axles. The Dana 80 is more axle than most people will ever need. There are plenty of ...Thanks for your contribution in the 4x4 world. Edit: updated numbers. -Ford explorer 8.8- 5.75 center of tube to bottom of housing. Non shaved. -HP dana 30-4.75 center of tube to bottom of housing. Non shaved. -Fj40 (probably all 9.5'' gears) 5.750'' with the oil drain plug in stock form. -14bolts - 7" (5 3/8'' with intensive ground clearance ...Crane Axle Magnum Knuckle Kit. All Bearings, Seals, and Hardware needed to install. Magnum Inner C's are bored 3.5" ID standard. Please CALL TO ORDER if you would like them bored to 4.0" ID. (615) 962-9135. Introducing the MAGNUM KNUCKLE KIT from Crane Axle. Commonly used on a 14 Bolt Steering Axle and a Dana 80 Steering Axle.Sarah Buhr speaks with Nathan Jauvtis about his company Bolt and the electric motorbikes they manufacture by hand in their San Francisco garage. Sarah Buhr speaks with Nathan Jauvt...Search first posts only. Search titles only By:Search first posts only. Search titles only By:Usain Bolt, the greatest sprinter in modern times, is expected to retire. He's been earning more than $30 million annually, mostly from endorsements. By clicking "TRY IT", I agree ...The 14 bolt has 2 main downfalls in my book. 1) Its a plow in the woods and will hang you up everytime 2) when they are disc braked the seal dries out or something because they all leak. The 70 could be considered weaker because the pinion is the same as a 60 rear and it doesn't have the 3rd bearing on the pinion.The 2011 up Sterlings (Ford) are 11" it seems and also have a 37 spline pinion same as a dana 80, the AAM and Dana 80 are both 11.5 all good stuff, better than the old days . ... 14 bolt is tried and true and would argue that it's on the same level as the 11.5 and Dana 80 .Truck Year. 1987. Truck Model. R10 Silverado SWB. Engine Size. 350 TBI. As part of my K5 build I found a SF 14 bolt 6 lug 3.73 gov lock differential which I will be installing soon. I need to at least change the gears in my front since they are 3.08 from the factory. I started looking at options and thought about just changing the axle to one ...14 Bolt Kingpin 60 Ready to Ride Front Steering Axle . Rating: 0%. As low as $0.00. Add to Wish List. Add to Cart. Add to Compare. 14 Bolt Magnum Ready to Ride Front Steering Axle ... Dana 80 40 Spline Ready to Ride Rear Axle . Rating: 0%. Add to Wish List. Call to Order. Add to Compare. Dana 80 47 Spline Ready to Ride Rear Axle ...SVL Drivetrain Spider Gear Kits 2023882. Differential Carrier Rebuild Kits and Spider Gears, GM 8.875 in. (12-bolt) Car/Truck, Side Gears, Rear, Limited Slip, Eaton, Posi, 30-spline, Kit. Part Number: SVL-2023882.1 Ton Discussion starter. 11 posts · Joined 2009. #1 · Dec 15, 2009. Dana 60 front axle single wheel with 4:56s. Corp 14 bolt with 4:56s. Trac Lok for the 60 and a 2" steering block. $800. These axles came out of a 84 K30. axles located In Jamestown NY 14701.14 bolt vs dana 60. ... '80 CJ5 w/AMC360, T176, D44 w/Detroit 4.56, RE 4" YJ lift and 35s.. Lower 2 Guardrail Down Schoolbus Slickrock Tellico Save Crozet More Crozet. Save Share. Like. This is an older thread, you may not receive a response, and could be reviving an old thread. Please consider creating a new thread.dana 80 is a straight forward swap as the perches match up but they seem quite expensive around here and even more if its factory discs. can be had with 3.55 ratio which would match my dana 60 front ratio. srw wms to wms is 70" which is closer to the 67.5" of the dana 60. aam 11.5 requires moving perches to line up which wouldn't be a …When it comes to assembling and tightening bolts, using a bolt torque chart is essential. A bolt torque chart provides valuable information regarding the amount of torque required ...The 10-bolt and the 44 use the same outer stuff, the ring gears are the same size, both are available in 30 spline versions. The 10-bolt uses a slightly larger pinion, and larger ring gear bolts. All in all strength-wise they are very close as a front axle. However there is much better aftermarket support for the Dana 44, which is a good reason ... Don't know on the internals, but as wa